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Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignements

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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 26 Jan 2011 10:01

alex42 a écrit:envois moi ta guitar dans un hard case par fedex .

je te la restaure avec plaisir.et je te change ton barrage parceque la c est clairement pas le barrage approprie a un chevalet flottant.

elle reviendra prete a jouer :wink:


Salut Alex,
Merci de t'être penché sur le chevet de ma vieille malade. Et de ta proposition. Et de ta suggestion de transformation.

Alors je te réponds point par point:

1. Remplacement du barrage en éventail: à priori, l'idée de modifier aussi radicalement la conception d'un instrument ancien (et intéressant me semble-t-il) ne m'enchante pas.
Mais, réflexion faite, tu as probablement tout de même raison: d'une part, il ne s'agit pas d'une Selmer ou d'une Busato, d'autre part, l'affaissement de la table montre bien un défaut de conception, qu'il serait donc légitime de corriger, enfin, ce serait une bonne façon de s'assurer que la table ne redescende plus.
Cela va sans doute modifier le son de la guitare. Difficile en revanche, de prédire dans quel sens et ce qu'elle y gagnera (et perdra). Voire impossible...

2. Restauration: merci de ta proposition. J'imagine que, si tu me proposes d'effectuer ce travail, c'est que tu as de l'expérience en la matière et/ou que tu es luthier, juste?
Je suis ouvert à toute proposition, mais il faut que je me fasse une idée plus précise du coût de l'affaire avant de m'y lancer.

En effet, il faut bien que je pèse le pour et le contre: entre l'intérêt de l'instrument (historiquement ça me semble évident; question nom, Siro et Gino sont de parfait inconnus, ce n'est donc pas un instrument "précieux"; et du point du son pas la moindre idée...) et le coût d'une remise en état minimum, pour rendre l'instrument jouable (pas une restauration complète comme on pourrait la faire pour une pièce de collection).

Or, financièrement, je ne suis pas Liliane Bettencourt (heureusement :wink: ) et il faut que je tienne compte de ce facteur aussi. L'expédition à elle seule, par Fedex (je vis en Suisse), me coûtera déjà probablement presque le prix que j'ai payé cette guitare.

Mais j'aime bien cette guitare, à qui je trouve une certaine gueule et dont j'aime bien l'histoire, et je serais heureux de lui redonner vie.

Bref, je me tâte... :?
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 26 Jan 2011 10:29

alex42 a écrit:envois moi ta guitar dans un hard case par fedex .

je te la restaure avec plaisir.et je te change ton barrage parceque la c est clairement pas le barrage approprie a un chevalet flottant.

elle reviendra prete a jouer :wink:


En complément d'information, et pour se faire une meilleure idée de l'état de la patiente, quelques photos de l'intérieur de la caisse. Elle ne sont pas excellentes, mais elles permettent aussi de se faire une idée un peu plus précise de la conception du raccord du manche (et par la même occasion du barrage).

J'ai photographié la jonction du manche de face:

Image

puis vers la droite, ce qui montre un petit éventail ouvert, à deux barres, sous l'épaule droite:

Image

puis vers la gauche, côté découpe, où ne se trouve qu'une seule barre, en diagonale, puisqu'il y a moins de place:

Image

Ca montre, me semble-t-il, qu'ils ont tenté d'arrimer l'extrémité du manche à l'intérieur de la caisse, au moyen d'une espèce de manchon en sapin, en forme de console, qui remonte en arc de cercle jusqu'à la bouche et prend la table et une barre de traverse en sandwich, entre l'extrémité du manche, à l'intérieur, et la touche, à l'extérieur.

Ce qui me paraît assez inhabituel et ingénieux à première vue; mais pas forcément une très bonne idée, à voir l'allure de la table à cet endroit...

Enfin, le barrage de la partie basse du corps, en éventail ouvert à 7 barres, en partie décollé aux extrémités rosace, en raison de l'affaissement de la table:

Image

Etonnant, non?

La suite au prochain épisode...
Dernière édition par pa_t le 28 Jan 2011 21:37, édité 1 fois au total.
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar grozob » 26 Jan 2011 13:44

t u peux faire confiance a alex 42 les yeux fermé.
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar c. maltese » 26 Jan 2011 14:03

je trouve cette guitare vraiment sympa, je n'hésiterais pour ma part pas une seconde à la restaurer (vu que je le ferais moi-même, je ne prendrais pas de gros risque financier évidemment :mrgreen: )

je trouve particulièrement intéressante la jonction corps/manche, avec l'absence de talon, le plus amusant, c'est que j'ai vu l'an passé un prototype de guitare d'un luthier parisien (Griot ou Cholet, je ne sais plus), fait à peu près de cette manière, comme quoi beaucoup d'innovations ne sont pas si nouvelles que ça!
Cyril Gaffiero, luthier spécialisé guitares manouches en Seine et Marne

http://www.cyrilgaffiero.fr
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 26 Jan 2011 22:25

grozob a écrit:t u peux faire confiance a alex 42 les yeux fermé.

En effet, c'est ce qu'on m'a dit.
Je pense que je suis mûr, et que je ne vais pas tarder à craquer...
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 26 Jan 2011 22:35

c. maltese a écrit:je trouve cette guitare vraiment sympa, je n'hésiterais pour ma part pas une seconde à la restaurer (vu que je le ferais moi-même, je ne prendrais pas de gros risque financier évidemment :mrgreen: )

je trouve particulièrement intéressante la jonction corps/manche, avec l'absence de talon, le plus amusant, c'est que j'ai vu l'an passé un prototype de guitare d'un luthier parisien (Griot ou Cholet, je ne sais plus), fait à peu près de cette manière, comme quoi beaucoup d'innovations ne sont pas si nouvelles que ça!


Salut, C. Maltese,
Merci de ton avis.
Je suis peu à peu en train de craquer et je pense que je ne fais pas tarder a céder à la tentation.
Il ne reste plus qu'à trouver le financement... :?

Ceci dit, ta remarque sur l'absence de talon à la base du manche est intéressante: l'idée "originale" du luthier dont tu parles date en effet au minimum de 1923, si j'en crois la Mario Maccaferri classique datée de cette année-là, visible sur le site de Benoît de Bretagne (http://www.benoit-de-bretagne.com/phpBB ... 303#107303). L'idée de ton luthier parisien aurait pu être d'avant-garde, mais... il y 88 ans. :)
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar alex42 » 27 Jan 2011 08:56

en plus de ce que je t ai dis en mail.

sur tes photo il semble que meme le barrage sous la touche est decoller :wink: c est pas etonnant qu elle soit toute gondoler.

le prob c est que lorsque ton chevalet ecrase la table la courbe qui se dessine a pour centre la rosace et si c a s ecrase au chevalet alors le manche aussi appuis sur cette partie et c est le massacre :wink:

ensuite puisque cette guitare a ete faite avec eventail il est possible (par deduction) que la courbure de la table n etais pas aussi prononcer que sur une selmer type (ce qui veut dire que ajoute un barrage gondoler par le dos n est pas facil car la table n aura pas eu une courbure prononcer au moment de l assemblage enfin c est techique mais bon c est un fait une table se courbe AVANT l assemblage eclisse car apres la table n a plus d elasticitee une fois coller au eclisse sa forme est definitive .

tu me dira ou est le probleme? :roll: :roll:

c est simple le manche a ete jointee en fonction de l angle de la table par rapport a la courbure des barrage..

changer les barrage pour bomber la table c est deregler l angle du manche original.(et aussi un peu la forme de la boite le dos aura tendance a etre moins large que la table )...et 1 millimetre d angle de manche c est environ egal a 1 kilometre en voirie

mais ca peut se rattraper en grignotant de la touche (sous entendu refrettage en supplement) :lol:



mais tout est faisable avec du bois..( c est l avantage du bois )

ps............peut tu controller si ton manche est droit ou vriller? ( c est le plus emmerdant en ce qui me concerne si le manche fait un mechant trou au milieu ( car manche plus touche comme ca faut changer au moins la touche pour esperer remettre droit :wink:

tu prend une grande regle de 60ctm.........tu la pose sur les frette toute la longueur du manche.

et tu me dis si la regle touche partout ou si il y a un creux (et dans ce cas la de quelle profondeur) au milieu du manche

en ce qui me concerne pour cette guitar c est un peu comme si tu recupere une vieille bagnole en ruine et que tu la retape parceque tu aime bien les vieille bagnoles.et meme si ca te coute une fortune pour retaper une 2cv ba si tu aime les 2cv tu prendra ton pied a rouler avec le dimanche

c est la meme chose pour cette guitare es ce que ca vaut le coup? tout depend de si on veut une vielle gratte ou non..

mais si ce n est pas une guitare celebre,alors certain luthier te dirons que ca ne vaut pas les frais engendrer :wink: , ya quand meme un sacre boulot et malheureusement c est un travail interne et structurel pour la plus grosse partie (reparer une fissure ca va tout le monde te le fera....changer un barrage ou un manche c est deja aut chose (parceque faut le changer le recoller ne servira a rien, ce barrage n est pas adapter a un chevalet flottant voila le gros probleme)

voila long post c etait pour te parler des petit detail qui en fait devienne des heures de dur labeur :lol:
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 28 Jan 2011 01:04

Salut Alex,
Merci de ce complément d'info. Je me rends bien compte que cette guitare paraît cliniquement morte et que seul un traitement de choc pourra la ramener à la vie.
Et j'ai pris ma décision: allons-y! pas question de laisser roupiller cette ancêtre au mur d'un salon: elle doit vivre!
Je te réponds plus en détail en MP.
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar grozob » 28 Jan 2011 07:35

alors alex si tu la restaures prends des photos et montres nous les etapes mon poulet.
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar alex42 » 29 Jan 2011 13:52

il va y avoir plus de photo que dans la redoute la vu le boulot a faire :lol: :lol:

quand meme du bois de 100 ans avec un squelette bionique genre l homme qui valait 3 milliards ca devrais sonner d une force a reveiller le diable ca , faut faire gaffe le bois doit etre sec comme un fossil par contre pas interet d aller vite et de le craquer a mon avis un crack la dessus ca dechire toute la table comme du verre du haut en bas faut pas deconner en manipulant :wink:

mais tout de meme quand on voit la qualitee du spruce et du pallissandre ouch ,ya bon bois la j ai jamais eu un spruce aussi bien dessiner sur toute mes guitare c est un grade superieur ca :wink:

moi je pense que c est une bombe qui attend son detonnateur cette guitare avec une structure moderne, n a pas de raison de sonner moins bien qu une autre :wink:
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar alex42 » 12 Fév 2011 04:45

je vous met un article qui explique un peu le context de l epoque parisienne a l arrive des luthier italiens :wink:

et on voit que cette guitare faite en pallissandre massif devait etre penser pour le marche haut de gamme car a cette epoque les pallissandre etait tres tres cher comparativement au salaire des gens.

on fabriquait plutot en mahogany erable et ou contreplaquer multipli etc..

les mec qui on fabriquer cette guitare avait l intention de la vendre cher :wink:
Dernière édition par alex42 le 12 Fév 2011 10:11, édité 3 fois au total.
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar alex42 » 12 Fév 2011 04:57

voila l article en question ,tres interressant et le sujet qui nous preocupe commence a l arriver des italien vers 1920

on vois bien le context de l epoque et le non sens a faire fabriquer des guitare en pallissandre massif par des ouvrier immigres (sous entendu payer pas cher) dans un context de crise economique terrible (celle des annees 20 30 ), donc main d oeuvres moins cher (je parle pour les fabricant en gros evidemment pas pour les luthier independant) mais meme eux ils essayaient de vendre moins cher pour survivre, et etre competitif ca dans le commerce la compete est toujours presente ,

alors construire en pallissandre des model bas de gamme en serie ca n aurait pas de sens pour l epoque puisqu il n y avait pas la clientelle assez fortune pour ca, :wink:



................................................................

A Look at French Guitar Making Since 1850

By Daniel Friederich
Translated by Robert Page
Thanks to Danielle Ribouillault for permission to reprint this article.

This article is adapted from a longer piece which appeared in Les Cahiers de la Guitare, Numbers 41 and 42, published in1992.

In 1950s France, you could count on one hand the professional guitarists capable of giving a one-hour concert,�and accomplished guitar makers were just as rare. Just as the general level of guitarists has soared in the past five decades, that of the instrument builders has also gone up. Never in the last hundred or more years have there been as many original and talented luthiers in France as there are today.

To understand where French guitar making stands now, it is important to understand its history.

In the middle of the 19th century, Paris was the uncontested capital of cabinet making and instrument making in France. Pianos, organs, fine string and wind instruments were constructed in large quantities. But the production of guitars was much smaller.

For guitars, it was only in the little town of Mirecourt in the Vosges Mountains, ancient center of stringed instrument manufacture, where large numbers were made. At the same time, working in Paris were two very famous luthiers who dominated guitar making of the 19th century. Rene Lacote and Etienne La Prevotte were two of the most prominent of a small group of guitar makers who carried on diligent research that would pave the way for future developments.

The guitar of that time was a bit smaller, and can be compared to what today is known as the romantic guitar. With a smaller body, a shorter string length, gut strings and a narrower neck, it was easier to play but possessed a sound less rich although in some ways clearer than today�s guitars. However, the guitar began flagging in popularity because of the rise of the piano.

As the Cottin brothers, popular guitarists, singers and composers of the period, wrote in 1892:

�...the principal cause of the abandonment of the guitar was the perfecting of the piano-forte, the study of which attracted all those with musical ambitions, and little by little the guitar was forgotten� (�Manuel du luthier,� in L�Encyclop�die Roret, 1894, p.223)

Around 1850 the modern classical guitar appears in Andalusia

While interest in the guitar was on the wane in France, historic advances were being made across the Spanish border. While the tiny town of Mirecourt continued to produce guitars in the romantic style, it was neither there nor in Paris where the instrument would undergo the changes that would transform it into the 20th century instrument we know today. Rather it was in Andalusia, Spain where Antonio Torres, a good observer and professional cabinet maker, brought together developments in construction already in use by separate makers. In 1853, he introduced his synthesis with some variations. We see in those guitars a body sometimes larger (from 35 to 36 cm), a bridge like today�s, a thinner sound board with a fan bracing (created also in Andalusia 70 years earlier) and a wider fretboard.

That guitar had much more �body� and depth of tone. It was more pleasing and was adopted by such influential guitarists as Julian Arcas and Francisco Tarrega.

That type of construction gradually won the day in Madrid where Jose Ramirez I directed his workshop and taught his younger brother Manuel who applied in his own work the concepts of Torres. One of Jose Ramirez�s students was Julian Gomez-Ramirez who went to France and set up shop in Paris (possibly before 1919) to take advantage of the resurgence of the guitar there. (He is mentioned at that date in the directory Musique-Adresses as having already moved into 38 rue Rodier, Paris. This is the earliest trace found of him before his official listing in the commercial register from 1920 to 1940.)

Two guitar styles at the turn of the century

We see then that, along with the still popular romantic guitar, there appeared in France a demand for the new Spanish style guitars. Romantic guitars were still being produced at Mirecourt well into the 20th century, many of them were very well made and had ivory purfling which was then in vogue.

Yet the 1912 store catalogs of Joseph Fissore in Paris and P�lisson-Guinot-Blanchon in Lyon display only modern Spanish guitars. Just before the First World War, the popular catalog of the manufacture of weapons and bicycles known as Saint-Etienne advertised both types of guitars: it was truly a period of transition.

Julian Gomez-Ramirez introduced in Paris the new Spanish concepts which had major consequences for French luthery. He taught Robert Bouchet who had bought a guitar from him in 1938. Bouchet himself started to build guitars after the Second World War. Bouchet passed on his knowledge to Christian Aubin, and later, Aubin would go on to teach the author of this article in 1954.

We have been concerned only with the nylon string classical guitar played with the right hand fingers, which was very appreciated in artistic circles. But other types of guitars with steel strings also had success in France in accompaniment and solo performance for jazz, tango and popular dance music.

The Italians arrive

During the 1930s, the guitar was played by such popular musicians as the singer Tino Rossi, and a jazz artist like Django Reinhardt took it to the highest level of esteem and created a demand which was satisfied by the new luthiers who came with the cabinetmakers from Italy to Paris during the 20s. Some of them came from Catania, Sicily, a manufacturing center which furnished a lot of cheap instruments for the popular music market.

The first to open a workshop in Paris was V. Jacobacci whose workmen were to become many of the luthiers of the future.

These new arrivals were named Pappalardo, Di Mauro, Amico, Anastasio, Busato, Bucolo, Castelluccia, Favino, Oliveri, Burgasssi, Martella, Grizzo, Rossito, Petilio, etc. They built mandolins, banjos and guitars in large quantities.

They worked hard and produced very fairly priced instruments. Some of their sons, like Pappalardo, Favino, Anastasio and Castelluccia, still carry on their family enterprises today.

One of these emigr�s had a remarkable international destiny. His name was Mario Maccaferri, born at the beginning of the century near Bologna.

Having studied guitar playing and guitar making with Luigi Mozzani in that city, he moved to Paris in 1919, then to London (according to Tom Evans) and began a career as guitarist, luthier, engineer and business man. Around 1930 he developed three guitar models for the French firm of Selmer: classical, jazz or orchestra, and Hawaiian. The classical and jazz models had a unique appearance and featured a large cut-away on the upper bout so the left hand could easily reach the highest notes.

Classical guitarists did not adopt that feature, but jazz players made it a great success, Django Reinhardt first and foremost. The production of these guitars by Selmer lasted only a short time because of a disagreement between the two partners. The design eventually entered the public domain and was taken up for many years by the �Italian� luthiers of Paris.

Just before the Second World War (1939-1945) Maccaferri emigrated to the United States and started a successful company that made clarinet and saxophone reeds. Shortly after 1954 he invested a lot of money in the manufacture of plastic guitars which were cleverly designed and very affordable, but they proved to be a failure. However, his ukuleles made of the same material became a huge success and more than nine million were sold.

The 1930s

The Italians of Paris were not the only guitar makers in France at that time. Large numbers of mandolins, banjos and guitars, among other instruments, were being made in by Frenchmen in Mirecourt.

Construction methods were very similar: in most cases everyone used curved plywood backs and sides with sliced veneers of fine woods. Between two layers of this rare wood was sandwiched a layer of slightly stronger ordinary wood like poplar or mahogany. By gluing and clamping the wood sheets a curved guitar back that was strong and inexpensive was formed in a mold, thus avoiding the time-consuming work of joinery. The necks and bridges were prefabricated by specialists in Mirecourt or Paris, while the soundboards were made by the various luthiers according to their designs.

Guitarists who wanted a solid wood instrument made from rosewood or other sawn woods (not sliced veneers) had to pay much more and could order from Julian Gomez-Ramirez (1879-1943) on the Rue Rodier in Paris, whose construction was of high quality.

Guitars from master Spanish luthiers were bought by a few devoted amateur and professional players, among them the well-known animal trainer Martin Guerre who owned several fine guitars including one by Francisco Simplicio. (It was a Simplicio guitar that I tried to copy briefly in 1955 to make my own first guitar.)

While instruments by Domingo Esteso, Santos Hernandez, Torres and Manuel Ramirez were highly appreciated in France, guitar dealers sold mostly guitars made in France. That afforded regular work to many builders, though it was poorly paid. These habits changed progressively beginning in 1955 and the opening of the common market.

In 1940, war came. People stayed at home and traveled less. However, a few guitar circles existed during that period such as �The Friends of the Guitar,� organized by Andr� Verdier, which met on the Rue Saint-Louis-en-l�ile in Paris. Several classical guitar teachers such as Romain Worchech, Jean Borresdon, Jean Lafon and Martial Farrail gave basic instruction, but it wasn�t until after the war and the advent of nylon strings that the popularity of the classical guitar grew swiftly along with that of the steel string guitar.

The guitar flourishes in the 1950s

Several guitar styles came into fashion during the 1950s. Andres Segovia performed regularly in Paris: his concerts were well attended and drew critical attention. Many singer-songwriters appeared accompanying themselves on the guitar (the new troubadours) and quickly became famous like Henri Salvador, F�lix Leclerc and Georges Brassens. The public discovered with rapture the �Ballets de l�Am�rique latine� which visited Paris in 1952 accompanied by the �Quatre Guanis� with their charangos, guitars, cuatros and harps playing new rhythms with sonorous names: Bailecito, Chacarera, Zamba, Carnavalito, Malambo which remained popular for 25 years performed by the uncontested masters Atahualpa Yupangui and Eduardo Fal�.

There was also the music for the film Jeux interdits (�Forbidden Games� also known today as �Romance� or �Spanish Ballad�) played by Narciso Yepes that everybody wanted to play. And the duo Presti-Lagoya enjoyed a triumphant career up until the tragic death of Ida Presti in 1967.

The flamenco guitar was not to be outdone and Robert Vidal presented a weekly radio broadcast called Sortil�ges du Flamenco (Flamenco Magic). He also founded the Concours International de Guitare on the radio in 1958.

Just as at the beginning of the 19th century, Paris welcomed classical guitarists from around the world.

In 1954 Spaniards like Jose-Maria Sierra and Ramon Cueto played almost every night in a little basement spot called �Club plein Vent� (42 Rue Descartes) where the excellent French guitarist Christian Aubin also often performed on his fine Torres. Other foreign arrivals were Antonio Membrado, Miguel Casta�os, Manuel Carrion and Alberto Ponce who won first prize in the Radio France and many other competitions.

They all came with their Spanish guitars and the first Ignacio Fleta guitars showed up in Paris in 1955 in the hands of Sierra and Cueto. They were immediately greatly admired and gradually caused the guitars of Torres, Manuel Ramirez, Esteso, Simplicio, Garcia, etc. to be put back in their cases.

Other makers, such as Conde Hermanos, Mateu, Vicente Camacho, Arcangel Fernandez and De la Chica, found a place on the French market where they sold hundreds of their instruments.

French builders generally could not produce this type of guitar in solid wood of the highest quality which required special techniques as well as special procedures for the marquetry and the purfling. They were accustomed to simple neck joints and rapid manual operations and so left that higher quality construction to the Spaniards. To satisfy the great demand, they turned out countless moderately priced guitars both at Mirecourt and in Paris.

However, a few determined Parisians decided to construct high quality instruments along the lines of the Spaniards. None of them were originally luthiers.

The first was Robert Bouchet, a painter and illustrator who had played the guitar off and on for a long time and who had watched Julian Gomez-Ramirez at work in Paris (and afterward Marcelo Barbero shortly before his death in 1956). A sharp observer and very clever with his hands, he produced guitars, using poor quality materials, starting in 1950 and these were surprising for their good sustain and generally fine characteristics.

Ida Presti, around 1958, was won over, as were Alexandre Lagoya (who met her at Bouchet�s workshop) and Julian Bream. Orders then began flooding in from all over and a happy time began for him. He perfected his original bracing system for his soundboards preserving the traditional seven-bar fan but adding a small transversal brace under the bridge (which he had noticed in his 100-year-old Lacote).

The second was Christian Aubin, a young professional guitarist who gained his technical guitar making knowledge from Bouchet. In 1952 Aubin had completely taken apart and reconstructed his Torres guitar which he had dropped. He was bitten by the guitar making bug and started making copies of his restored guitar that were very easy to play and close to the original.

He had the kindness to initiate me in turn in 1955. He spent several hours teaching me the general principles of Spanish style construction. That is to say: how to join the neck to the body by making two saw cuts on either side of the heel where the guitar sides are inserted, how to glue the braced soundboard to the end of the neck at the top of the heel, then after inserting and gluing the sides, as well as the bottom lining, the backing of the sides and the small blocks of wood to which the top is attached, proceeding to fit and glue the solid wood back, all done in an exterior mold containing the instrument.

Already established as a cabinetmaker, at the end of 1959 I launched my career as professional guitar maker and decided to show one of my guitars (it must have been the fifteenth) to Robert Bouchet who welcomed me with his usual cordiality. The instrument must have been quite rudimentary, but he gave me advice without discouraging me and afterward I paid him visits which were both educational and friendly .

In 1962 Alexandre Lagoya introduced me to the musical acoustics laboratory of the University of Paris VI. Our guitaristic directions at the time were moving in separate directions. I was 30 years old and still had much to experience, but like Robert Bouchet, I built my first guitar for my personal use lacking the money to buy one and possessing a burning curiosity.

During that time in Paris there was also a talented man who built high quality guitars in his dining room. His name was David En�sa who was destined to pass away in 1957 from a throat ailment.

A little before 1960 Antonio Luis-Lopez, a young luthier from Granada and nephew of De la Chica, set up shop in Paris. Having to contend, like French luthiers, with the Spanish competition he gallantly took his chances and worked hard up until he passed away from an illness in 1990.

In Marseille Arthur Carbonell II was actively producing fine guitars until he ended his very full career in 1975. His father had been a guitar maker in Valencia before he opened a workshop in Marseille around 1922 where he taught his son the craft. After the second world war the son turned to the construction of concert guitars (numbered from about 300 to 580). He taught the craft to Jo�l Laplane who took over the workshop in 1975.

Around 1960 in Lyon Alexandre Boyadjian, who had been a cabinetmaker and played a little guitar for some time, began building. He set up a professional workshop in 1963 and still makes guitars today.

Here ends the list of the principal high quality guitar makers whom I am familiar with.

1960: the decline of Mirecourt and the success of Spanish luthery

At this time the workers at Mirecourt were leaving their jobs. After centuries of earning a well-deserved reputation as violin and guitar makers, they were still being badly paid and so gradually they left to work at the American military base in Etain or elsewhere. French guitar dealers had developed a taste for the instruments imported from Japan, Spain, Germany and Czechoslovakia and the last two large factories in Mirecourt closed in 1967 and 1969.

In 1992, after all those years of instrument making, there were only four artisan guitar builders left, the two G�rome brothers, Claude Patenotte and his assistant, along with five or six violin makers. The school of luthery which was started a few years ago in Mirecourt so far offers training only in violin and bow making but there is reason to hope for a renewal of interest in guitar making there.

The 1960s saw the triumph of fine Spanish guitar making and its leading masters. Ignacio Fleta and his two sons in Barcelona hold the first place for quality and fame. John Williams, Alberto Ponce, Turibio Santos, Oscar Caceres, Eduardo Falu, Segovia, and J�rgen Klatt were their ambassadors.

Nevertheless, the guitar was still very popular at that time in France and the demand was met by the so-called �Italian makers� of Paris along with the workshops of Chauvet, Mouly, S�galas and Fontaine (who specialized in 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 sizes and was notable as a pioneer in France for his total investment in semi industrial production which reached approximately 6,000 guitars per year!), as well as the brothers G�rome, Louis Patenotte, and Henri Miller at Mirecourt. They all constructed large numbers of moderately priced folk, jazz and classical guitars.

As for high quality instruments, Antonio Ruiz-Lopez, a luthier belonging to the Paris Academy of the Guitar, around 1964-65 taught Fran�ois Perrin who had just finished his violin making apprenticeship at Mirecourt. Perrin worked for the guitar academy up until 1968 when he opened his own workshop and produced fine guitars until 1974, then he went back to successfully making bowed string instruments.

Ruiz-Lopez also taught Guy Daurat who later turned to building viol de gambas and other instruments of that family.

1970: expansion of Spanish luthery

Around this time a guitar builder in Madrid, Jose Ramirez III, saw his fame grow from year to year when Yepes, Segovia, Lagoya, Ghiglia and hundreds of others started using his instruments. He had a great worldwide success and was able to meet the demand while not neglecting the quality of construction nor the newly developed, very durable polyester varnish of his best model.

Several of his workers set up shops of their own, Manuel Contreras in 1962, Paulino Bernabe in 1969. Madrid became an important center for high quality guitar making. Granada also saw an exponential increase in its guitar makers, while the mass production of guitars stayed traditionally concentrated in Valencia.

These contemporary guitars are more difficult to play and are heavier than earlier guitars, requiring better technique but giving more power, nuances and variations of tone and dynamics.

At the same time Victor B�dikian, Pierre Jaffr� and Daniel Lesueur in Paris started building high quality guitars. The sons of the so-called �Italian luthiers� of Paris, like Antoine Papparlardo, Jacques Castelluccia and Jean-Pierre Favino, became interested in making finer guitars.

French luthiery picks up the challenge

Happily for French guitar makers (well-named guitarreros in Spanish) imitation and conformity has not been the rule. Previously, when Segovia or another famous maestro changed his guitar, he brought along a whole camp of followers, amateurs or professionals, who had to have the same guitar. That state of affairs is much less apparent today. Guitar teachers and professional musicians try to find the instruments that suit best their tone, their attack, and work best for their style of playing.

That has given more opportunities for today�s luthiers. In France the network of high quality builders has grown and extends to almost all parts of the country. Some of the new names who should be mentioned are: Olivier Fanton d�Andon in Chateaudun, Bruno Perrin in Toulon, Michel Donadey and Jo�l Laplane in Marseille, Dominique Delarue in Carpentras, Thierry Jacquet and Martine Montassier in Montpellier, Pascal Quinson near Montauban, Antonio Arroyo in Saint-Jean-de-Luz, Richard Caro and Jean-Luc Joie in Bordeaux, Maurice Dupont in Cognac, Pierre Abondance near Nontron, Jean-Marie Fouilleul near Rennes, J.C. Malherbe in Ploughgauven, Alain Raifort in Tours, Dominique Field, Alain Qu�quiner, Dominique Bouge and Vincent Corbi�re in Paris, and Corbelari, Bertrand Martin, Vincenti and Maurice Ottiger in neighboring Switzerland.

Today there are some 70 workshops in France for the repair and construction of all sorts of classical guitars. As I said at the beginning, the general level of quality has much improved. One reason for this was the acceptance of classical guitar makers around 1980 in the Concours des Meilleurs Ouvriers de France (Best Craftsmen of France Competition). That allowed many luthiers to be rewarded along side the winners of the Concours International des maitres guitariers (International Competition of Master Guitar Makers ) organized by Robert Vidal.

A Short History of the Concours des Meilleurs Ouvriers de France

To create a chef-d�oeuvre so as to gain the title of qualified craftsman (called compagnon, or companion, in the past), to arrive in time at the level of mastery needed to open a workshop and be recognized by the older masters of the craft is a practice hundreds of years old.

Henri IV in 1599 established precise statutes for the incorporation of music instrument makers in Paris which included apprentices, craftsmen and masters. According to these statutes the sons of master craftsmen could take on their fathers� titles without producing a chef-d�oeuvre and the fathers, in their role as master-judges of works submitted, awarded such titles less and less frequently. The result was that master craftsmen were selected from a more and more narrow circle, sometimes just from within families.

As a result, beginning in the 16th century artisans sought to organize themselves more closely than before independent of their employers. Brotherhoods of craftsmen took on more importance and became organizations designed for struggle, solidarity and the professional and spiritual education of its members. Quasi-religious rules evolved which embraced obligatory celibacy, baptism and attribution of a new name, rigorous customs, initiation ceremonies around an altar and belief in Christianity.

Little by little the various fraternities of artisans developed their own networks in France and established for members aspiring to the title of companion their own requirements above and beyond the obligatory production of a chef d�oeuvre.

But opening a workshop of one�s own remained just as difficult of attainment and just as costly.

By the end of the 18th century the winds of liberty were felt blowing and in 1791, in a spirit of equality, the Constituent Assembly completely eliminated those corporations and forbade masters and companions from entitling themselves either presidents or secretaries, from associating with one another, from keeping registers, etc. It declared that everyone was free to exercise whatever profession, art or trade they pleased.

However, crafts societies were reborn after the Restoration in 1815 and they reached a peak in 1848. The dawn of the 20th century saw these organizations again put to the test by the growth of industrialization and unionism.

During the 19th century the right to work at the profession of one�s choice remained in effect but to have the title of compagnon was still an advantageous and honorable distinction.

Certain requirements of the old crafts societies have been retained by the Best Craftsmen of France Competition and its parent organization, the M.O.F.

Founding of the M.O.F

In 1924 the French government decided to reward excellence in manual work by giving the title of �One of the best workers in France� to creators of hand-made articles chosen by a jury �in order to improve professional education, strengthen the corporate spirit, develop the taste and the attachment of the worker, the craftsman and the technician to their occupation, to allow each one to express their personality, taste, initiative and enjoy the benefits of their labor.� (First article of the general regulations)

The entry must be a very traditional instrument as described in the competition�s official instructions. Obviously not all the luthiers in France can compete at the same time, but all instruments worthy of the M.O.F. designation receive their rewards. Each contest can have one or several or no outstanding guitars. A luthier who is awarded the title of M.O.F. becomes officially qualified as �master.�
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar alex42 » 12 Fév 2011 14:18

padrig j espere que tu a reviser un peu ta grammaire anglaise :lol: :lol: :wink:
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 12 Fév 2011 18:43

alex42 a écrit:voila l article en question ,tres interressant et le sujet qui nous preocupe commence a l arriver des italien vers 1920

on vois bien le context de l epoque et le non sens a faire fabriquer des guitare en pallissandre massif par des ouvrier immigres (sous entendu payer pas cher) dans un context de crise economique terrible (celle des annees 20 30 ), donc main d oeuvres moins cher (je parle pour les fabricant en gros evidemment pas pour les luthier independant) mais meme eux ils essayaient de vendre moins cher pour survivre, et etre competitif ca dans le commerce la compete est toujours presente ,

alors construire en pallissandre des model bas de gamme en serie ca n aurait pas de sens pour l epoque puisqu il n y avait pas la clientelle assez fortune pour ca, :wink:

................................................................

A Look at French Guitar Making Since 1850

By Daniel Friederich
Translated by Robert Page
Thanks to Danielle Ribouillault for permission to reprint this article.

This article is adapted from a longer piece which appeared in Les Cahiers de la Guitare, Numbers 41 and 42, published in1992.



Très intéressant article! Merci Alex.
En y réfléchissant un peu, et pour autant que la guitare dont nous parlons, réalisée par Siro et Gino, l'ait effectivement été entre 1928 et 1932, il ne me semble pas abusif de penser que ces deux luthiers ont fait partie de l'équipe des luthiers italiens montés en France dans les années 1920-1930, mais plutôt précoces, puisqu'ils ont - avant d'ouvrir leur propre atelier - déjà occupé des responsabilités d'ouvriers puis de contremaîtres chez Chevin qui produisait - entre autres - des banjos de luxe. Donc qu'ils étaient déjà à Paris depuis un certain temps quand ils ont ouvert leur atelier.

Leur étiquette - pour rappel - présente leur établissement ainsi:

"FABRIQUE D'INSTRUMENTS DE MUSIQUE
-----------------------
BANJOS & GUITARES
JAZZ-BAND et Accessoires
Toutes réparations - Lutherie d'art
-----------------------
SIRO et GINO
Anciens ouvriers et contremaîtres de la Maison CHEVIN
56, Rue de Reuilly, 56 PARIS (12e)
-----------------------
Téléphone Diderot 10-83
"

La disposition graphique du texte m'amène à me demander s'il ne faut pas lire "GUITARE JAZZ-BAND" comme une seule expression, qui désignerait précisément la guitare dont nous parlons. Sorte de guitare d'orchestre, probablement assez puissante, pour soutenir les cuivres et - dans certains cas, remplacer les banjos ou les guitares-banjos. Siro et Gino ont d'ailleurs conservé pour leur guitare un cordier de banjo six cordes.

J'en viens même à penser qu'il est un peu anachronique de parler de guitare "manouche", dans la mesure où les premières Maccaferri jazz "manouches", au sens où nous l'entendons aujourd'hui, datent de 1932. Et que la guitare dont nous parlons ici, qu'il faudrait plutôt qualifier de "guitare de jazz" est probablement de peu antérieure à cette date.

J'en viens à me demander si elle ne représenterait pas, peut-être, une espèce de chaînon intermédiaire dans l'évolution de la guitare de jazz française, entre les guitares de jazz américaines des années '20-'25 (Gibson et Martin, à table bombée, cordier et bouche ronde), les guitares-banjos des jazz-bands, et les Maccaferri de 1932, type "Django". Ce sont ces dernières qui deviendront LA référence. Alors que les essais de "guitare jazz-band" de Siro et Gino finiront, quant à eux, dans l'oubli de l'histoire de la guitare...

Ma théorie vous semble-t-elle absurde? :?
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 13 Fév 2011 20:01

Toujours à propos de la guitare de Siro et Gino dont nous parlons, et de ses influences possibles, j'avais cité, à propos de la jonction manche/corps et du profil du pan coupé, inhabituels, une guitare classique de Mario Maccaferri datée de 1923 (et, si on en croit les étiquettes, réalisée en Italie, mais vendue à Paris ensuite).

Un petit montage (ci-dessous) montre bien, me semble-t-il, que Siro et Gino ont, sur ces deux points précis, une dette envers Maccaferri. Même s'ils vont plus loin que lui encore, dans l'innovation, puisque la jonction du pan coupé se fait chez eux à l'aplomb du bord supérieur du manche, alors que Maccaferri ne dépasse pas le milieu du manche, probablement pour des raisons de solidité de l'assemblage:

les 2 photos de gauche: la Siro et Gino (vers 1928-1932), les deux photos de droite: la Mario Maccaferri classique de 1923:

Image

Ou alors c'est que le hasard fait vraiment bien les choses :wink: ...
Dernière édition par pa_t le 31 Juil 2011 09:36, édité 1 fois au total.
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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Re: Guitare manouche(?) Siro et Gino, années 30 - Renseignem

Messagepar pa_t » 14 Fév 2011 21:09

Bon, eh bien, maintenant, on passe aux choses vraiment sérieuses: opération résurrection, sous la direction d'Alex!

La suite ici: http://guitarejazzmanouche.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22168#p249371
"Il faut avoir une grande musique en soi pour faire danser la vie." F. Nietzsche
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